Monday, May 9, 2011

I Never Was That Type Of Man


The thing about a man is that you just never really know, do you? Or even if you do know about a man it’s only at a certain moment in time, a certain period of his life. Because people aren’t fixed, they’re not comic book characters, even if we’d like them to be.

Shane Mosley punked out Saturday night, but I’d never call him a punk. At one time the bastard would have cast the world in flames to get the win but that was long gone on Saturday night. It wasn’t just that he turtled and cringed, it was that he didn’t throw a punch in anger; that was the genuine disappointment. I could have dealt with the backpeddle and the cloying hand touches if I felt like there was at least an element of hope and guile behind it.


To throw yourself at Manny was perhaps too much to ask -he clearly didn’t want the deeper hurt – but I still could have been contented if I saw him throw a few in anger. Just one a round, even, and it would have changed the tenor. Because even an outmatched hero needs only a fist/chin connection in time/space to reach inspiration.


Even a blind man might’ve had more of a chance, because a fist in space CAN find it’s mark purely by accident. It can, if it’s thrown with purpose. You don't have to be a romantic or deranged to know that much is true.


But Shane wouldn’t do it. Refused to. I don’t even know that I’d say he was in it before the knockdown, but after the third round it was done. I know his legs were gone and he was tired and there wasn’t much left, but even old lions have teeth, and there’s always enough hunger to close your jaws if you were once king of the jungle, isn’t there?

Not in Shane’s case. It doesn’t fill me with special contempt, or cause me to reevaluate his career. Mosley’s honest to a fault, and that’s what we saw on Saturday night. Perhaps it is a deeper courage to know one’s limits and behave as such, but that’s not what moves us. It is, perhaps, why although Shane was a great champion he was never a particular popular or inspiring one.


I’ve argued before that fighters can be either religious – like Evander Holyfield’s madness – or secular – like Floyd and Bernard Hopkin’s scientific perfection – but I don’t think Mosley was ever quite either. You either have to tell yourself that your body and limits are a lie or you have to have someone from above tell you. When you’re honest is when you’re lost.


And Shane’s lost. I wish him well, that fine fighting champion.


And now to Manny. I know the people are angry, but I just can’t get with it. He was fighting a friendly ghost in there, and he won every second. Was he his beautiful, electric self? Absolutely not, but Mosley wasn’t going to let him perform. There is pride, to the last, and even in the muck.


If Manny had some genuine venom toward Mosley I do believe he could have got the stoppage. But he’s been a merciful God of late and I won’t really blame him. It must be dreadful lonesome atop Olympus and it’s hard to conjure inspiration from discount heroes.


So, no, I’m not particularly angry with him, or with Bob Arum either. There is no good fight out there other than Floyd. You have to know that. Berto, Bradley, Judah… c’mon. We know what Manny would have done to them. I’m still intrigued by Marquez as an unfinished narrative, but the result there is clear.


Manny’s too good for the rest, but he’s a fighter, and so he fights.


I know people want to say he showed some vulnerability, I guess so. He’s not at his best against a retreating foe, but then again, who is? This fight reminded me most of his second bout with Barrera, where Manny looked similarly uninspired against another great but unwilling champion.


That fight didn’t tell us much about Manny, and neither did this one. If Manny loses it’ll be to a great fighter (you know who I’m talking about,) not a style, he’s beyond the level of styles make fights. It’s demeaning, just stop it.


So we wait, and that’s all we can do. Every last mother will be chopped down until we get to the big boss. I don’t know when that’ll happen, but I still have hope. Until then…

36 comments:

jmag said...

Great write-up, Shoe. And I totally agree that people blaming Pac (and I hear the British broadcast was especially harsh) aren't acknowledging the reality. Pac's doing everything he can (or at least, that's what it seems like to me). His comments about not caring about fighting Floyd, but wanting it because the fans want it ring true. I think he legitimately is looking to entertain, to push his own limits, and to be victorious.

On the other hand, I lay a little more blame on Shane than you do. It doesn't taint his legacy, it doesn't make him a punk, but he was afraid of the man across from him tonight. It's interesting the difference in approach between the Mayweather fight and this one. Shane seemed scared to throw punches. That's a legitimate human fear, but boxers (at least, the great ones) are supposed to be beyond such human emotions. We love them because they're doing things that we refuse to do, and showing us things about human nature at its rawest. When you lose that, you have to go. And Shane has to go. Losing is one thing, but Shane didn't look like he wanted any part of that fight. And so, it's time for him to retire.

Chris said...

I agree that Mosely was probably the best opposition to be had. After Floyd who else out there could even give a competitive fight at this point? Sergio Martinez certainly, although the weight difference may be too great for that to happen. Amir Khan would be interesting if Manny dropped in weight. Marquez for the sake of completing the trilogy. But after that? So yes I can't fairly criticize him for the fight choices. Its hardly his fault he is too good for the quality of opposition he has to deal with. But still I am not thrilled watching Pacquaio vs. a parade of over matched opposition. I appreciate his greatness but I am not moved by it. No doubt this speaks more about me than him but the fact remains. To me if the Floyd fight never happens I will always wonder just how good Pacquaio was (and Floyd to a lesser degree).

Anthony Wilson said...

Chris, why Floyd "to a lesser degree"?

purephase said...

So, no, I’m not particularly angry with him, or with Bob Arum either. There is no good fight out there other than Floyd. You have to know that. Berto, Bradley, Judah… c’mon. We know what Manny would have done to them. I’m still intrigued by Marquez as an unfinished narrative, but the result there is clear.
I'm sorry but there was no justification for this fight. Berto and Marquez, even if the latter had to run to 147, were far more preferable. There was no demand for this fight at all, and even if one was not inspired by Pacquiao's list of non-Mayweather opponents, Mosley's name was still the least inspiring of them all. The Mosley we saw on Saturday was the same guy who could not get his shots off against Mora and the same guy who shelled up in the second half of the Mayweather fight. There was likewise no justification for the Margarito fight, an even more disgusting spectacle. I was legitimately angry with Manny for that one; he absolutely should have known better even if Arum did not. For this one, I was simply disappointed, especially after it initially seemed like he was more interested in taking on Berto than Bob's obvious first choice.

I can't hold it against Manny that he wants to make money, but that does not change the fact that these were entirely cynical cash grabs. Yes Manny likely would have defeated all the alternatives, but at least his opponents would have done something relevant in the past two years. I'm also not a fan of the idea that we can simply excuse a guy for not fighting the most deserving opponents because "they would have lost anyway." That has been the same logic another contemporary pound-for-pound star has used to not take certain fights. I don't think we should let either of them off the hook.

I'm not mad at Manny for his performance. Maybe he had an off-night, maybe his leg was bothering him, maybe he has in fact slowed down. I'm also not mad at Mosley. He's provided me years of entertainment and I knew he wasn't going to magically regain his ability to let his hands go at 39. But I'm definitely mad at Arum, who has twice in a row used the failed Mayweather fight as a shield for the awful matches he's been making. The fact that Judah is even mentioned as a possible opponent for the next fight shows that we should not expect this trend to subside.

Chris said...

To a lesser degree because I feel as though I have a good handle on how great Floyd is. Not to say I haven't seen proof of Manny's greatness; far from it. His level of opposition in he last 6 years or so is world class. Better than Floyd's opposition recently and probably better than his opposition ever if I am being completely honest. Maybe its because Manny has beaten so many of my favorites that I find it hard to like him or give me his full due. But as to why, in my heart, I question his supremacy? His fights against Marquez come to mind. As does his first fight against Morales. He is certainly improved since than and Morales is a singular fighter in his own right no shame losing to the likes of him. But there was a vulnerability there that I have never seen in Floyd. Not that Floyd has ever fought someone like Morales but still I believe in Floyd's supremacy in a way I seemly cannot for Manny. Maybe its because I grew up on Mayweather and there is an affection for him whereas Pacquaio is a more recent addition to my life. It goes beyond logic I suppose. I just cannot crown Pacquaio as the greatest when I still believe Floyd is greater. Thats why I want that fight so bad I want to know. There is nothing to be learned one way or another in these Mosely, Margarito, etc level fights. They just tell us what we already know about Pacquaio, mainly, that is great. But no matter how definitive his victories there is still the voice in my head that says, "Floyd wouldn't be hit by that, Floyd would be countering him all night, Floyd would ..." And I until I know that I am right or wrong I cannot say that I know how great Manny is. And I fully realize that same argument could be applied to Floyd. Its just I already believe you know? And at the end of the day belief is something that is impossible to really justify you just believe in something or you don't and I just don't believe in Manny yet.

Anthony Wilson said...

That was a great answer, Chis.

Anthony Wilson said...

Shoe, I know you'd say this post-fight quote from Manny captures his current essence: "I'll tell you the truth, I was expecting that he would fight with me at least five rounds of the 12 rounds, to fight toe-to-toe with me so that we could test our power and our stamina, you know." Winning is too easy, and as you've written before it's like he has to challenge himself in other ways just to keep interested in the competition.

ricky roe said...

"But I'm definitely mad at Arum, who has twice in a row used the failed Mayweather fight as a shield for the awful matches he's been making. The fact that Judah is even mentioned as a possible opponent for the next fight shows that we should not expect this trend to subside."....im glad somebody feels the same...i believe bob never had any intention of making the fight either time...hes pretty good at the spin game(my favorite was the top rank website countdown for floyd to sign some alleged contract)....ive said for awhile now this guy wants no part of floyd until hes ready to cash out....manny is bobs last great "gift" to the sport if you will....and it would pain him to see him beat by a guy who left his stable and became a megastar without him....i also love how people killed floyd for having jmm come to 147...they said "ohh jmm cant carry his skills up to that weight...he cant be effective there"....but now its gonna be acceptable for pac to make a 147lb fight with jmm?......sure shane was probably a bit more shy about standing in front of pac and taking his punches...but floyd walked him down and naz was pretty close to stopping it....manny cant cut off a ring against a 39 year old and take him out...i remember at the rumble after floyd whooped shane...how many guys were convinced that pac would dispose of shane rather easily

Anthony Wilson said...

Hey Ricky, Happy Belated Birthday lol

jmag said...

Ricky, I think most reasonable fans acknowledged that Mosley has an incredible chin, and that he's still got enough toughness that it'll be tough to put him out if he doesn't feel like standing and banging. And obviously, I feel very differently than you on who actually wants a Floyd-Pac fight.

Chris, to be honest, I feel a bit differently. I love Pac more because I've seen him pushed. It seems to me that Pac's taken far greater risks in his career, and he's lost fights because of that. But when he's managed to emerge victorious over risks, it's far more appealing to me. Maybe it's just that I've always liked brawlers more than slick technicians.

Brad White said...

Ricky, Manny did "dispose of Shane rather easily." He got him to quit. After the third round Shane was afraid to take a forward step. Make no mistake of it, this was his No Mas fight. He didn't throw his hands up and walk out of the ring, but he might as well have. Oscar quit against Manny also. As did Clottey. They guys that didn't quit(see cotto and Margarito), ended up with faces that were broken and swollen. It's a price Mosley apparently didn't want to pay, but knew he would have to if he did dare take a forward step on Manny.

Brad White said...

By the way Ricky, people killed Floyd because he agreed to fight JMM at 144, which was a stretch for JMM. Our boy Floyd, shows up at 146, pays a fine then tells us he never agreed to 144 (but never explains why he paid the fine). If memory serves, there were also still plenty of "lively" welterweights fighting at the time for Floyd to fight. JMM didn't really make any sense to anyone at that time. But that's all water under the bridge...how have you been?

shoefly said...

Hey Everybody,
Glad to see Brad, Ricky, and the rest of the gang again, I missed you guys.

Regarding Chris' point. It's interesting, because Manny's Featherweight run - Barrera, Morales, Marquez - is pretty clearly a greater historical gauntlet than Floyd's bonesmaking era of Chico and Castillo, but there is a feeling that, as you said, he's unproven.

I've written about it before, but I think part of it is styles. Floyd's scientific excellence just feels so insurmountable, whereas Pacquiao's occasional awkwardness can be a little off putting. He probably had more of that against mosley than we've seen in a while, though it certainly didn't hurt him.

Might need a post on this, or maybe I've repeated myself, but Floyd has some of that Kobe grace that lifts him up. By that I mean Kobe was never (don't flip on me Ant) as great as Shaq or Duncan, but his degree of difficulty and style were such to cause us to overlook it at some point.

I do believe that, unlike Kobe, Floyd is legitimately the best, but I do think he gets the benefit of the doubt based on grace.

And, for the people hammering Pac for choosing Mosley, again, I just can't get with it. To me, I think it's more historically important that he fights Mosley, even damaged Mosley, than Axing a never was/will be like Berto. I even think there's always the hope there will be a rekindling of the residue of a great fighting champion in a guy like him or Marquez, than Berto.

Though, as you can probably tell, I'm not a huge fan of his and therefore might be blind.

As I always say, it's not ducking unless they're offering you more money, and I don't think Manny's ever turned down one of those fights.

ricky roe said...

great to see the gang here again as well...thanks for the bday wishes ant...and great to see brad again!...brad...jmm was a top 3 p4p guy who has given manny fits..so it made sense....he called floyd out..the fight made sense...again...floyd didnt use any weight advantage during the fight...he simply outclassed jmm badly...and it caused people to cry that jmm cant carry his skills that far up in weight...and know manny is going to ask for a 145 catchweight for a third jmm fight...and you people will turn a blind eye and say "oooo...weve wanted to see a 3rd fight here"...i do not want to see it......as far as manny taking out shane easily...you know what u and others said and meant....and to be honest...pac didnt deliver it....and u know he wanted to(unless they had some sort of agreement, which given the fact that shane got the fight in the first place, wouldnt suprise me...where shane would sprinkle in a knockdown for pac in exchange for pac letting him survive with his no ko streak in tact).....pac wants to give the fans a show...and he couldnt cut shane off and take him....i can only imagine what floyd would do to this guy if floyd decided to make pac chase him around the ring all night....manny is a windup toy...if u stand in front of him hell eat you up...move on him and he cant find you...floyd will eat this guy up...i can totally see floyd playing a game with this guy...half the time standing there in front of him walking him down...the other half making pac chase him around in a game of cat and mouse where pac keeps getting timed and tagged...and pac not having a clue what to do about it

ricky roe said...

"Ricky, Manny did "dispose of Shane rather easily." He got him to quit. After the third round Shane was afraid to take a forward step."...not bad...but according to most of you guys shane quit after the 2nd round against floyd...so i guess he took him out easier....

purephase said...

I just don't see the historical importance of a Mosley fight at this point in time. It's a nice name, but it was only ever going to be a name, and as such I think it does little for his legacy. I was incapable of envisioning a scenario where he returned to greatness when the fight was made, and I saw nothing to make me reconsider my opinion.

I don't care for Berto much at all, but at least he would have been an opponent who had shown something in the last two years, and I do believe there's a higher probability of him becoming legitimate than of Shane returning to glory. It also in all likelihood would have been for The Ring belt. While any claim to being the true king of that division is contentious until Pac-Floyd takes place, I certainly think that distinction would have had much more historical significance than beating a 39 year old who had gone winless for a good while. Did you also think it was more historically important for Hopkins to beat up Jones last year than to take on Dawson?

I'm not inclined to hammer Pac for the decision, but I have no idea why Arum should be free of criticism for these last two fights. The Mosley fight only looks acceptable in comparison to the absolute farce that preceded it.

Brad White said...

"I can only imagine what Floyd would do to this guy"....exactly, Ricky. That's all any of us can do when it come to Floyd Mayweather and boxing:"Imagine." Because unless it's a security guard (or girlfriend), chances are he's not interested in fighting. I had a few friends over for the fight and we were talking about how Mayweather won a split decision 4 years ago with Oscar. 4 years almost to the day. The welterweight division was THE division back then. Cotto had close wins over Judah and Mosley that year. Margarito fought Paul Williams, we were all expecting Floyd to fight all these guys. Do you realize since that May 2007 split decision with Oscar your boy Floyd has only fought 3 times?!!! (Hatton,JMM and Mosely) Manny fought Jorge Solis a couple weeks before Oscar-Floyd. In that same time he has fought: Solis,Barrera,JMM,Diaz,Oscar,Hatton,Cotto,Clottey,Margarito and Shane. So you just keep "imagining" what Floyd would do in the ring. That's about all you're going to get.

Brad White said...

Ricky, if old, slow Mosely "caught" Mayweather with some pretty damn good shots (which he did in round 2), how easy do you "imagine" it would be for Manny to hit him? And then do something Mosely was unable to do: follow up. Pacquiao is maybe 100 times quicker than Mosely. Conseratively speaking. I "imagine" Manny beating Floyd. And I imagine you losing a very big bet on it. It's fun to imagine.

ricky roe said...

brad...im going to try to be short...because weve been over this alot..dont wanna keep repeating stuff....but....yeah...shane did rock floyd...but in all honesty..i feel it was out of floyd being lackadaisical....i dont think he was ever concerned with anything shane could do....im pretty sure hed be alot more alert and cautious against pac....lets remember...shane tried to follow up..he didnt simply rock floyd and then take steps backwards...it was floyds boxing iq and ring acumen that allowed him to execute a textbook maneuver when being rocked....and its more amazing considering floyd is rarely, if ever, put in a position like that...to be able to have the wherewithal to pull that off after taking a flush shot like that is pretty amazing to me.....i dunno if manny has it in him to pull off any kind of gameplan or adjustments when hes being flustered by somebody who can move and hit back

Brad White said...

I respect your opinion Ricky. The fight could go that way. I just think Manny is too quick, comes from too many different angles, can take anything Floyd throws, has developed into a complete fighter. I think his speed and ability to fluidly adapt while attacking would be Floyd undoing. But there is also an intangible that is rarely talked about. Will. I think Manny's will to win will carry the day. he'll find a way to beat Floyd because he has to. Boxing defines Pacquiao. It's important to him. His legacy. He "has to beat" Mayweather. Just like Duran had to beat Leonard and Frazier had to beat Ali. Mayweather seems indifferent to boxing. I also think the Mayweather, all students of the game, know this.I probably would have agreed with you on who wins Mayweather Pacquiao a few years ago, but not now. Manny is in a different place.

ricky roe said...

im praying we get the chance to see this...and you may be right..i may lose alot of money...ive seen plenty of online books post a line when they were supposed to be trying to make the fight...and most of them had floyd around -130 to -150 opening as a slight fave...would be interesting to see how that line moves as the fight gets closer...to see how people really feel and which way the money came in...but the potential reward at that price is such a great value...especially for a fight i feel will be easier than most think.....i agree, for the most part, on what you just said about manny...i guess you could call him a complete fighter...but i dunno about a complete boxer....i dont see him being able to cut a ring off and get to somebody who isnt standing in front of him...someone that can move and throw back....he should have been able to cut the ring off on shane and take him out....to me hes a wind up toy with great stamina...and maybe his workrate and stamina is enough to push floyd past his physical limits(but we know floyd is always in great shape...but maybe manny can overwhelm him with work and stamina)...but if its not working for manny..i dunno what hed do....i dont think hes a smart boxer(maybe im not astute enough...maybe hes smarter than i think)...i dont see him having a great ring iq...ive noticed some things he does here and there which are pretty sharp....but i too thought hed dispose of shane....and im kinda wondering why.....

ricky roe said...

sorry "why he didnt"

shoefly said...

I just don't see that this fight was particularly relevant to the results of Manny/Floyd. Did you see the punchstats for the fight, Ricky? He was a nonparticipant, much more so than Clottey ever was. http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/view.php?pg=pacquiao-mosley-compubox

I don't see where this performance really changes any perceptions, Manny crushed, but Shane didn't participate. It's like those people who claim Floyd struggles against pressure because Jesus Chavez and Ricky Hatton managed to put their head on his chest. yeah, Maybe, but Floyd won every round.

And Manny has won every round recently against, "so called boxers," as I said in this piece, I don't think either of these guys is answerable to "styles," only "quality."

Does Floyd still have the legs to give a lovely, moving, Chico Corrales level performance? I don't know. Even if he does, could Manny push through. You seem certain, and I have my suspicions, but we all want to see it.

Purephrase: When we look back at older boxers, a lot of times we look at the faded big names they fought moreso than a perhaps relevant contender. I think that will likely be the case with Manny/Shane, though this fight will always have a bullet. I just don't believe anyone will ever remember the name of Berto.

So to me, it's kind of six of one... It's all simply killing time. Though I do give a man credit each time he steps into the ring, I give Manny nearly as much as Floyd got for Shane... and I was effusive. They are great fighters and each mark is to their benefit.

Hmm, had one more thing to say... Oh yeah, they say the fight did 1.2 million PPV's. I know, "greatness, greatness, etc." But does it do a million with Berto/Bradley? I seriously doubt it.

We'll have to see what's next. I still like the Marquez fight, would've preferred it to Shane slightly, but we'll see.

Chris said...

Shoefly - I think the idea of him being unproven has something to do him fighting his biggest opponents when he did. Barrera and Morales being on the downslope of their careers when they fought. De La Hoya being so weight drained. Cotto's chaotic circumstances. Mosely being a shadow of his former self. Struggles against Marquez. Now of course none of this is really his fault; just circumstances beyond his control. And really as I said earlier I still think he wins all those fights regardless (except for Morales and possibly Marquez).

jmag - Yeah I expect I am definitely the minority opinion on this. It is strange because its the struggle against adversity that I find most compelling about boxing that I completely understand where your coming from.
And really there is so much to like about Pacquaio I just wish I could get excited about him. At least he seems to actually want to box whereas I am pretty sure Floyd just in it for the money at this point.

Chris said...

And I strongly wish to beg to differ that Shaq was better than Kobe. Dude was in shape for what 30% of his career if that?

Anthony Wilson said...

@Shoefly I know it's besides the point, but I just wish I knew why you felt that way about Kobe's greatness lol

As for the Pac-Money fight that will never happen: On Saturday night, I think I heard Bernstein mention that Mosley's length was helping to reduce Pac's punch output? Didn't I hear that? And of course Shane's retreating that night added to that also.

Well, Floyd will enjoy a slightly greater reach advantage, he can still move at least as much as Shane did for sure, and though he won't throw all that much, he'll exploit the openings Pac leaves in a way Shane wasn't willing to/capable of.

I'm speaking of the way Large explained in his Floyd-Shane prognoz: "With Shane lunging and flurrying the way he does, Floyd is going to catch him with more than a few of those you-never-saw-it-didja?-now-dance-for-me-motherfucker type counters, the ones that send you down Queersville in a jiffy."

Though I doubt he'll hurt Manny, he's a harder puncher than he gets credit for and of course very accurate. Some theorized that it made Shane gun-shy, and I remember Shoe referencing what Marquez and Morales were able to do against Pac in making a very similar point to the one I'm making here (in fact, I pretty much stole it from him). "Make Manny gun-shy with his accuracy," as Shoe put it.

Of course...I don't think even Floyd can avoid all five shots of a five-punch combo from a southpaw. And he's only going to make Manny so hesitant...

purephase said...

Hmm, had one more thing to say... Oh yeah, they say the fight did 1.2 million PPV's. I know, "greatness, greatness, etc." But does it do a million with Berto/Bradley? I seriously doubt it.?

I'd like to see official numbers before I declare this a success. In the immediate aftermath of the Margarito fight, Arum was crowing about it doing 1.4 and we all know it fell well short of that number. I feel like Pacquiao is at a point where can do a million regardless of the opponent, especially with the more aggressive advertising campaign that was behind this fight. Part of the reason the Clottey fight failed to crack that number was because the dragged out Floyd negotiations delayed promotion, and it did not even have a 24/7.

Also, wasn't one of the reasons given for no Mosley-Pac fight in 2009 the fact that he wasn't a good draw? I don't think he made many new fans with his two subsequent performances. His main attractiveness in my opinion stemmed from the fact that he wasn't affiliated with a rival promoter more so than any actual drawing power.

ricky roe said...

@shoe...please stay with me...im kind of a rambler...but here goes...i believe, for all intents and purposes, the shane that fought floyd and manny are basically the same guy(although the one floyd fought, on paper, was better...ring #3p4p coming off two ko wins...but thats just floyd capitalizing)...i also remember what alot of pacfans said about marquez after floyd dominated him(aside from the whole "marquez cant carry weight up that high and still be effective")...they said floyd was a terrible style matchup for jmm because floyd doesnt engage...that jmm needs somebody to come at him and throw first so he can counter...thats what jmm likes to do....when i think of pac...i see a guy who needs a slow footed fighter wholl stand in front of him and open up at times...most of the fighters hes fought recently can do nothing but stand there and cover up and take the oncoming onslaught...shane actually ran and clinched...and pac didnt look like he knew what to do...sure he won every round off a sheer aggression and work...being the one who brought the fight to the other....but thats not hard because the other guy didnt throw anything....i just think back to how floyd beat shane(not to mention how close naz was to stopping it)...how nobody really saw the manner in which he did coming...even roach said floyd wouldnt stand toe to toe with him and hed have to get on his bike(only to have him change his story after the fight and say floyds legs were gone..i dont even think freddie believed that..just probably giving us a quotable)...and i just remember tons of people were convinced that pac would easily dispose of shane based off of what floyd did...yet he wasnt able to....and spare me the "merciful pac" stuff...u know he wanted to ko him...no matter what these guys say..they are in competition...and pac is trying to slaugther a guy that floyd just fought and went the distance with...im a little perplexed as to why he had a problem putting away a guy that didnt just stand in front of him and cover up....i did see the punch stats shoe...and what i saw was pac throwing 250 more punches than floyd did ...and landing only 16 more...showing how efficient floyd is...floyd has the ability to use his feet to move out of harms way...quickly reset them and fire off....each guy offers the other its most unqiue challenge....for floyd its being able to outlast a guy who throws alot of hard punches and doesnt tire...for pac its fighting the smartest, most, intelligent, fighter hes seen...neither guy can really replicate what theyd be seeing with a sparring partner...and i know people will say "what about how pac took out hoya and hatton"...but i wasnt impressed with the way manny handled shane...at all really...afterall this was a guy he was supposed to easily ko because floyd dominated him...i know shane wasnt willing...but if pac is such a killer he should be able to cut him off and find him...

Brave Justice said...

After this fight even Hatton was saying he think Pac can't hang with Floyd's style. Of course this is all speculation, but Manny looks perplexed with the fighters don't want to engage. That's why when he fights strong Mexican fighters they're instinct is the dish out the punishment you dished out on them. These make for good wars, but he isn't going to get Margarito if he faces Floyd. Freddie is going to hope Mayweather's legs are shot. The British annoucers were harsh on Manny's performance. They couldn't understand why Manny couldn't get to Shane and were praising Shane for how he nullfied Manny's offence (for my English speakers). They deducted Floyd would give Manny fits. Of course we wont know that unless they face each other, but I think this is what the Mayweather camp believes. Manny is not going to cut off the ring Castillo style punching Floyd in the legs and hip during clinches. Manny likes engagement which is going to make for a long night if he fights Mayweather's fight.

shoefly said...

I knew I'd rouse you with the Kobe comment, Anthony. I'm afraid that's one we'll have to sort out over a beer at some point. Shaq was greater, in the way shifting tectonic plates release more energy than the loveliest rainbow. Both deeply moving, however.

Suffice it to say that while I love and prefer the beautiful game, I am also a believer in true effectiveness. I found Ricky Hatton wretched to watch, an absolute jobber, but the man won those fights by force and was the best junior welter of the decade(Tszyu's run was short in the 2000's). Credit were it is due.

Which goes to Chris' point. Yeah, you can say all those things about Manny's opposition, but isn't it weird that he's had such an astounding run of good fortune? It's strange how only the really great fighters seem to hit guys at the right time, isn't it? You could obviously do the same thing to Floyd's record, but I won't, always give the man big credit for Marquez (the manner particularly) and Mosley and the rest.

Pure, Perhaps I shouldn't even have brought up the numbers, I guess my point was that there really was no compelling argument for anyone else. No one knows who Berto is now and no one, especially, will know who he is in ten years. Mosley's name at least rings out, which to me makes the discussion not so clear cut, particularly when I still say Mosley-Berto would be a pick'm.

Let me put it this way, I don't take people who claim Floyd missing out on Casa seriously. I do agree with you that I wish Arum would be more open, but I just have a hard time getting roused by it.

shoefly said...

Ricky, Brave:

Point out to me some rounds that Manny has lost against this style that gives him such fits? Point out some rounds where the opponent punches enough and in earnest that There was some give and take necessary for the retreating fighter to take a round.

As it happens I agree with you that Floyd will give Manny fits, that he's a nightmare. But again, I think it's because he's a GREAT fighter, not particularly his style.

I always tend to favor Floyd in my head, but there are several scenarios I see Manny winning.

1. (most likely) Floyd frustrates Manny terribly with his movement and precision, but Manny keeps pushing and throwing shots. At times Manny looks silly, but at other times he just throws so many more punches that Floyd's accuracy is negated. Perhaps not on clean punches, but at least on feel. The Way Floyd so clearly dominated Oscar, but judges gave rounds to Oscar. Floyd has a high tax on him, he has to be significantly better to with the rounds.

2. Floyd starts strong and looks good, but Manny taps him on the chin and he shells up. Floyd pushed through it against Shane, but can he do it against Manny's energy, it's a different beast entirely. Manny has changed his last several fights with a single punch. Functionally ending them. He could do it to Floyd.

3. The talk is right that Floyd's legs are a little weaker and he gets overwhelmed.

I don't think those are strange scenarios, and I don't think they changed after this fight.

And yes, Ricky, I do think Manny, if not merciful, was at least not fully focused. The same way I think Floyd always has more to give. You saw it in the upped tempo after the faux-knockdown.

ricky roe said...

"Point out to me some rounds that Manny has lost against this style that gives him such fits? Point out some rounds where the opponent punches enough and in earnest that There was some give and take necessary for the retreating fighter to take a round."....shoe...how many times have we seen somebody do what shane did against manny? there arent many rounds to choose from...but i agree with you on the premise that floyd is a nightmare for manny because hes a great fighter...not his style in particular...because floyd has shown he can fight using a few different styles....everybody talks about manny as if hes grown so much...and he has...and they say hes a complete fighter now...i dont think there is a more complete fighter in the world than floyd....i dont think a 33 year old floyd fights castillo the way he did when he was a kid....thats the problem for manny...i dont know if he can handle somebody who can move, fight back, and control a fight the way floyd is capable of...you know floyd can employ the tactics shane did to survive...and employ them better...at the same time he can mount an offense when doing it....i agree its floyd greatness, that presents the problem, not the style...but that doesnt change the fact that i dont think manny can handle the challenges floyd presents....i also agree that there are several scenarios where you can see manny doing his thing on floyd too...i just fancy floyds chances of controlling the fight much better.....shoe..i disagree with you about being focused...there is a war between these two guys going on...and you know manny and arum wanted to be the first to knock shane out or stop him...they wanted it bad...he couldnt pull it off though...i dont buy the "not focused" stuff...people say he has distractions every camp...and his fans say they are not worried because he always comes ready to get the job done...he won...he dominated...but hes set the bar high...he wanted to knock him out or stop him though...no doubt in my mind

ricky roe said...

http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content9899.html

Anthony Wilson said...

@Shoe Kobe just finished a run where he made the Finals three years in a row and won back-to-back titles as the alpha dog of his team. If that's not effective and deserving of credit I don't know what is lol

You would've rather built your team around Shaq or Duncan in their primes, that's indisputable; but Kobe had his time as King, too.

Brave Justice said...

@Shoe the reason its hard to find many rounds where this style has given him fits is because the majority of his opponents do not fight that style. Manny looks like he's hittable so fighters tend to trade with him which he LOVES. It excites him. He pounds his gloves together when he realizes he's in a war. He doesn't like the frustration of attempting to corner someone. He has a boxer's heart, but he pumps fighter blood. Those who tend to trade with him always run into punches they don't see. And when Manny lands them they are lethal. Floyd has trouble with southpaws this is where I see, if Manny is to win catching him. I just think a lot of his offense depends on the offense of his opponent. Counter punchers and defensive fighters, who fight back will give him trouble. Clottey had no problems landing when he shot his uppercut. Mosley had openings, but he was gun shy. I think he felt if he opened up he would get caught again. He didn't attempt to hit Manny until the 12th and it was only one flurry.

ricky roe said...

just thought id drop in here for a minute....arum and pac...my boy is coming for you....you wont be able to hide much longer...after ortiz is beaten thoroughly(we know arum will promptly fax a deal to golden boy for pac to fight ortiz) floyd is going to put the fullcourt press on you....and you will have no choice....the call outs will be too much for you to run from ....